23 replies to this topic

[Bromance]

Looks like I can't add a comment to the new optimization article.

So start a new discussion!

Awesome read by the way, and reminded me about a few hardware setup issues I have read about, and experienced myself.

http://www.tomshardw...ire-frame-input
http://www.pcgamesha...Reviews/?page=2

that is 2 of many forums and articles out there. Basically, for the best results, keep it simple! If your CPU is dual or tri, run dual or tri sticks, not fill the all the memory slots,and run the best single card you can. Always exceptions to the rule, but basically minimize the data path to the least amount. You would walk around the block twice, just walk to where your going. Plus extra traffic increases chances for error and lost data, or worse late data that it tries to still utilize, causing tear and lag spikes.

[TheFerngully]

I'm in school for computer science right now, just started programming and learning C++, and I can tell you just from 1 semester of learning this stuff it explains a lot along the same lines as what you're saying. But yeah I also build custom rigs for friends and family, and I can't tell you how many times I've come across people just putting together random sticks of RAM so that they have more, not realizing it slows down your computer and can even cause crashes. This summer I will be testing out SLI for the first time on either gtx 660's depending on how they perform or 560ti's.

[frostfenix]

Also note that even if you have a beastly hardware, it will be nothing if the software you will be using, the drivers and firmware of the hardware itself does not enable you to utilize it.

Some interesting read as well...http://semiaccurate....ibrary-updates/

[Bromance]

I'm in school for computer science right now, just started programming and learning C++, and I can tell you just from 1 semester of learning this stuff it explains a lot along the same lines as what you're saying. But yeah I also build custom rigs for friends and family, and I can't tell you how many times I've come across people just putting together random sticks of RAM so that they have more, not realizing it slows down your computer and can even cause crashes. This summer I will be testing out SLI for the first time on either gtx 660's depending on how they perform or 560ti's.

Got my BA last year.... Calculus kicked my ass.... I leaned towards Networking and am working on Microsoft certs now.....

Yes, the software (mainly gaming for our point) is not optimized to use most of the system. Most are set for dual core, but the CPU instructions will try to utilize all cores equally. If a game, and then (example Nvidia) nvidia drivers are specifically coded in conjunction to utilize SLI, you will see higher frames, but you still will lag in other aspects!

And the issue I have with current SSD's at the moment, is the OS and firmware compatibility and the way Windows utilizes it. Not to mention 6gb bandwidth still bottle necks SSD's, though faster then traditional hard drives, can't argue that... But getting into a game faster and still wait for others isn't worth the cost ATM.

Great input!!!!

[TheFerngully]

Yeah I have an 80GB SSD because at the time of the sale when I got it, it was an Intel mainstream one, it cost the same and it only loads my OS and WoW, my friends dad is one of the best gaming programmers in the world atm, and he said SSD's aren't being used to their potential so just get one that has your OS on it unless you want to buy it for the future, but as is right now, its not being utilized, just like most of my cores on my quad laptop and my quad desktop

[Elegy]

My personal experience with crossfire has caused be two swear off dual gpu forever. I noticed micro-stuttering with a crossfire setup and it bugged the hell out of me. As far as frame lag I'm not sure that it causes that, but I would have been too focused on the micro-stutter to notice.

[Bromance]

My personal experience with crossfire has caused be two swear off dual gpu forever. I noticed micro-stuttering with a crossfire setup and it bugged the hell out of me. As far as frame lag I'm not sure that it causes that, but I would have been too focused on the micro-stutter to notice.

I believe the are using a formula to figure out the lag, not sure if they can really test it, or if it is theory.

[Rexperience]

I'm in school for computer science right now, just started programming and learning C++, and I can tell you just from 1 semester of learning this stuff it explains a lot along the same lines as what you're saying. But yeah I also build custom rigs for friends and family, and I can't tell you how many times I've come across people just putting together random sticks of RAM so that they have more, not realizing it slows down your computer and can even cause crashes. This summer I will be testing out SLI for the first time on either gtx 660's depending on how they perform or 560ti's.

looking forward to having you setup my dual 560ti's soon

[Novaura]

Yeah there are quite a few ADK for have 2 x 560Ti's I know that Whicker does for sure and even Wormholewizard does.

[-Grimreaperx2-]

A few thing I want to mention about these SLI/CXF systems is that:
1. Not everything supports multi-gpus.
2. There have been some serious improvements in the chipsets that allow much more performance then what the older chipsets did. Now with 2 cards you can almost get 2x the FPS.
3. Depending on the card and price some times 2 weaker cards can out perform the top end car and still cost less. Its all about the price, performance, and cost.

[Bromance]

A few thing I want to mention about these SLI/CXF systems is that:
1. Not everything supports multi-gpus.
2. There have been some serious improvements in the chipsets that allow much more performance then what the older chipsets did. Now with 2 cards you can almost get 2x the FPS.
3. Depending on the card and price some times 2 weaker cards can out perform the top end car and still cost less. Its all about the price, performance, and cost.

When you measure only FPS, yes, when you look out side the FPS, you will see negative issues as stated above. Quality frame rates will trump any day. A dual GPU on one board eliminates frame tear and slow refresh rates...

Basically it lowers your refresh rate, so mathematically, you run a 60 hz refreash rate, you will only notice 60 FPS, 120 hz, 120 frames. So running 100 frames at 58hz (as SLI/Crossfire lowers your refresh rate)... You will notice a difference.

[=ADK= warspite]

Good conversation here. It just makes sense that anything one can do to lower the complexity of a system will not only make it more efficient, but will usually also increase its fault tolerance. I'm one of those guys who ran SLI 560 Ti's and for the most part, they performed pretty well. I just sold them, and took War_jr's dual 6950s and am running them in Crossfire right now. I replaced War_jr's 6950s with a GTX580 and I can say that he is much happier and that single card will run ANYTHING he can possibly throw at it with all the eye candy maxed out.

On the other hand, I really blew it by setting him up with Crossfire in the first place. It is a bitch figuring out which combo of drivers and CAPs (Crossfire App Profiles) work with each other. What's even a bigger PITA is that a set of drivers and CAPs that work really well with one game will fall on their ass in another... this in itself can be really frustrating (as I have recently learned).

Now, I like to tinker and mess around with my PC and it is fun to solve tech problems and I've always enjoyed posting on forums and doing my best to help other folks configure rigs and solve hdwe/software problems. After doing this for many years, I'm becoming sold on Bromance's "KISS" approach to PC building. While seeing 2-3 graphics cards in a rig looks pretty cool and the benchmarks they can rack up looks impressive, in the end they require so much tinkering and tweaking that it leaves little time for the other things that make PC computing so much fun (like gaming).

So, for me, as I move forward, I'm ditching my 6950s and getting a GTX680 as soon as they are back in the retail chain (freaking sold out EVERYWHERE!!! )

As far as SSDs go, I took the plunge on a Crucial M4 256GB SSD and never looked back. I did have to patch its firmware once (as a precaution against some bug or other), but other than that it has been trouble free and I've really enjoyed its speed.

war

[Bromance]

@war,

I have built many "budget" systems, and a few high end systems. I will try to never build a "budget" system again. Tinkering and constant tweeking does get old. But if I had another system to do that with, it would be a different story! But I don't and quality and reliability is my priority now.

As always a great post war!

[N30N]

I have 2 GTX570's in SLi.

have to say, all games run infinitely better with 2 cards than with my single card.

Thought, it's true not everyone is optimized for SLi, even newer games like SWTOR=mediocre FPS due to lack of support for SLi

Had 1 ATI4890 two years ago when it was the best card out, it was sufficient. Then got 2 in crossfire and everything was better.

Though I like NVIDIA better because those cards started artificating and I always had issues with weird glitches on drivers.

The KISS approach is interesting but logically not everyone has 2-3k to drop on SSD, i7, High-end GPU setups, so people budge it, and get a mediocre rig and usually snag a second GPU card later on or add a HDD etc...

[=ADK= warspite]

@- Nice setup you have there! I see we have the same taste in cases. I really like my Raven. As for myself, I think I've got my CrossfireX running how I like it, at least for BF3. It seems pretty smooth now since I've found a set of drivers that work well. I agree that the game itself can be a major factor in how well it plays in either single or multiple card configurations. Just a glance at Metro 2033 benchmarks so that ATI cards of the same class always outshine those of Nvidia.

I also agree that budget is a big factor too... I myself run mid-range budget rig... Core i5 2500K on a P67. As for the SSD, I saved my pennies for awhile and took the plunge on a 256GB one b/c I didn't want a small one. Other core pieces of the rig I bought one at a time as I could afford them. Ideally, when I upgrade I'm pretty happy if all I need to buy is a mobo, cpu, and memory. Since I also fund my kid's gaming rig, every penny counts!

One of the nice things about a PC is their modular-ness. To have a decent rig, you don't need to get the best stuff from the outset. Once you have your rig up and running for awhile, you can add top of the line parts here and there as you can afford them... this is the stuff that last awhile and doesn't need a refresh every year. The things I bought over time that I carry into future builds are my power supply, SSD, case, and sound card, and peripherals. Bought singly over time, they don't break the bank (esp if you can snipe a good deal on ebay), but if you try to get them together all at the same time in order to build a top-end gaming PC, they can really bulk up the cost.

As I picked up the 2nd 6950, I did what you said, and got it as I could afford it. The CrossfireX I have does a pretty good job. I've run the "Heaven" benchmark with everything maxed and "extreme" at 1920x1080 and I get performance on a par with the GTX 680 (+/- < 1 FPS). I probably will still ditch my CrossfireX for a GTX 680 when I can, but that's mostly b/c I want to stay on an upgrade path.

Very nice post!

war

[N30N]

@- Nice setup you have there! I see we have the same taste in cases. I really like my Raven. As for myself, I think I've got my CrossfireX running how I like it, at least for BF3. It seems pretty smooth now since I've found a set of drivers that work well. I agree that the game itself can be a major factor in how well it plays in either single or multiple card configurations. Just a glance at Metro 2033 benchmarks so that ATI cards of the same class always outshine those of Nvidia.

I also agree that budget is a big factor too... I myself run mid-range budget rig... Core i5 2500K on a P67. As for the SSD, I saved my pennies for awhile and took the plunge on a 256GB one b/c I didn't want a small one. Other core pieces of the rig I bought one at a time as I could afford them. Ideally, when I upgrade I'm pretty happy if all I need to buy is a mobo, cpu, and memory. Since I also fund my kid's gaming rig, every penny counts!

One of the nice things about a PC is their modular-ness. To have a decent rig, you don't need to get the best stuff from the outset. Once you have your rig up and running for awhile, you can add top of the line parts here and there as you can afford them... this is the stuff that last awhile and doesn't need a refresh every year. The things I bought over time that I carry into future builds are my power supply, SSD, case, and sound card, and peripherals. Bought singly over time, they don't break the bank (esp if you can snipe a good deal on ebay), but if you try to get them together all at the same time in order to build a top-end gaming PC, they can really bulk up the cost.

As I picked up the 2nd 6950, I did what you said, and got it as I could afford it. The CrossfireX I have does a pretty good job. I've run the "Heaven" benchmark with everything maxed and "extreme" at 1920x1080 and I get performance on a par with the GTX 680 (+/- < 1 FPS). I probably will still ditch my CrossfireX for a GTX 680 when I can, but that's mostly b/c I want to stay on an upgrade path.

Very nice post!

war

@=ADK= warspite Haha Thanks, you too. I bought the Raven case, #1 because I was so "mystified" by the whole 90 degree "natural heat convection" hype. I'm still impressed by it, then again it's not as good as what I thought it would be. THOUGH, I went for the RV01 because it was most expensive and I assumed it would be better, and I did like how it looked the BEST too, but I later learned the RV02 and RV03 actually had better cooling because they were updated LOL.

Anyway, #2 I purchased it because It looked like a stealth bomber!!! Lol, I'm sure you agree.

I don't know if I would call a i5 with Crossfire 6950s budge lol. it's all a matter of perspective, and the lines between budget and ethusiasts and performence are so blurred these day, im my opinion its a matter of semantics.

I actually did exactly what you said too: that is, I started off with a basic piece and gradually updated.

Hell, my sig rig, when I ordered from newegg.com JUST on december 2011 (lol) was:
i7 2600k
evga p67 mobo
1 GTX570
60gb ocz agility III SSD
8gb Patriot DDR3 RAM
Corsair 650D

I only later added the Corsair H70, then switched that out for the Noctua NH-D14, then added Mushkin RAM (I wanted 1.5voltage ram to match Intel's Sandy bridge specs), then added the Corsair AX850 Powersupply, then added the #2nd GTX570, then added a 180GB SSD, then bought the Raven 01 to replace the Corsair 650D (which was a superb case even for air cooling).

Sigh

Edited by KrimsonSkye, 04 May 2012 - 04:13 PM.

[N30N]

Speaking of that, modifying my CPU cooling and cases, and RAM, and graphics card, makes me realize how foolish I was because the BIGGEST BOTTLEKNECK EVER was the lack of an SSD!

When I purchased it I noticed the speed increase amazing! I honestly should have put my money their first (my friends always told me too, but I never listened) when making subpar upgrade choices like 1 to 2 GTX570's or maybe upgrading superficial things like the PC case

[=ADK= warspite]

Hahahaha! SSD's are pretty nice. Did you see that OCZ just released a 1TB SSD? Unreal. All they have to do now is come down to earth a little in cost/GB and we will all be happier! BTW, why did you get rid of your H70? From what I've seen, they are pretty good!

war

[Bromance]

Speaking of that, modifying my CPU cooling and cases, and RAM, and graphics card, makes me realize how foolish I was because the BIGGEST BOTTLEKNECK EVER was the lack of an SSD!

When I purchased it I noticed the speed increase amazing! I honestly should have put my money their first (my friends always told me too, but I never listened) when making subpar upgrade choices like 1 to 2 GTX570's or maybe upgrading superficial things like the PC case

Wait till W8 releases, EPIC IN CRESS IN PERFORMANCE with SSD's. Quality build (what I have been preaching) trumps all. Basically, if you have to upgrade your system with in 2 years (GPU not included), you built it wrong. A quality case and Mobo are pri 1, as they are a base for a system for years to come. You don't need to get the crazy hyper config all mobo, but a top quality chipset and manufacture, you have a base for a great system for years to come. A quality case will last a couple of builds with maybe a fan replacement later on.

I'll personally never do a budget build for my self again. One, you can find a pre-built for around the same price on sale, and two, I am just tired of constant tweeks and issues associated with budget products. Keep in mind almost all company's have budget products, and in a lot of cases, most products are made by only a few company's and re-branded with slightly different specs.. LCD monitors for years where produced by 4 different company's only, in 2 country's, just speced different with different "cases". Not sure about now, been outta school for a few years since I researched all this crap. So just because it is ASUS or Corsair doesn't mean quality.


But as far as gaming, SSD doesn't give you an edge, you just don't look at a loading screen as long. In gaming, your bottle neck is your GPU and/or network. Granted, for applications where you need fast loading times from your HD to your memory, to work more efficient, you are right. I have had an SSD, and yes, awesome, Windows loads in 2 seconds vs 20 seconds, and applications load from HD to memory in 1/16 of the time, for me doesn't out way the cost.

Now as War stated, a 1TB for a $200 ish would be awesome, and I'd be the 1st on to buy it.

[WhickerBasket]

I'm in school for computer science right now, just started programming and learning C++, and I can tell you just from 1 semester of learning this stuff it explains a lot along the same lines as what you're saying. But yeah I also build custom rigs for friends and family, and I can't tell you how many times I've come across people just putting together random sticks of RAM so that they have more, not realizing it slows down your computer and can even cause crashes. This summer I will be testing out SLI for the first time on either gtx 660's depending on how they perform or 560ti's.

I've got two 560ti's that with the proper clocking outperform a 580 on certain 3dmark tests.